My Beale Story and Analysis of Claims and Assertions.
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Thread: My Beale Story and Analysis of Claims and Assertions.

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  1. #1

    Jul 2013
    49
    9 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    My Beale Story and Analysis of Claims and Assertions.

    I was born in Radford, Virginia in 1969. I remember growing up seeing news reports on CBS (one of the four networks you could watch back then if you count PBS) of a treasure possibly located under a large boulder in Bedford County. At such a young age I was enamoured with adventure, and I always thought that one day I might go find that treasure. Later on as life progressed, and the internet was brought about, I learned more about the complete story of Thomas J Beale. Please let me be clear that I have no background in cryptology or ciphers. I'm of above average intelligence with an I.Q. of 122 and due to four decades of gaming and comic books, I have love for the "marriage" of imagination and logic. I tried once to do repetitive letter substitutions for about 2 weeks when I was unemployed in 2009 from the Building Crisis, but I could not fully focus on it due to the guilt of not looking for a job. Things have changed though and now I'm in a position where, once again, I can revisit this tale of history and try to uncover its richness.

    But upon finding this forum, all I see is dissention, toxic back and forth arguments, and an overwhelming chorus singing "H O A X." So I decided to start looking at WHY these people might be saying such things. I saw the claims...the assertions...and opinions that all of this was a well devised "fictional story" in order to scam people in a plot to attain riches. My heart wanted to rebel against these claims, but my logical mind chose to remain...and listen. I saw so much "evidence" against this being a real legendary treasure, that I wondered where all of the hope had gone. So I decided that I must use logic to fight back against the naysayers. What comes next will be subjective to the person reading, but I highly suggest you listen...because my reasoning is sound.


    As I said before, I am a man of imagination AND logic. Using both of these qualities, I feel that I can see reasoning at a level that some people might not. What I will attempt to do is address claims made about the Beale story, the real world people, and then the ciphers. I'll both defend AND cast doubt that my mind sees, and hopefully it may enlighten some who have not looked at or researched the points that I have. With that being said, let's begin...


    Claim 1: The story of Thomas Beale was a HOAX and fictional story to sell pamphlets and make a king's fortune off of unsuspecting people in search of fortune.
    Analysis: Shortly after the selling of the pamphlets, a warehouse fire broke out, destroying MOST of the pamphlets. If this were profiting scheme then they would just print more (seeing that the pamphlets were selling well). The author of the pamphlets never gained any riches.
    Summation: Claim Neutralized

    ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------

    Claim 2: Thomas J Beale never existed.
    Analysis: Okay...this is where things get dicey. Historical records indicate that 2 Thomas J Beales were born in Va around 1780's and 90s time frame. However, from what I can gather, BOTH were from the same father. I know...I know..sounds weird, but let me explain. Back in the olden days, if a family gave birth to a child, and that child died...the parents would try to have another child of that same sex to pass on that birthright name. Call it arrogance or family pride but most people would do this back then to have a specific family name pass through history. Thomas Beale III was born in 1675, and he had one child.. JOHN Beale. I capitalize John because I believe(if true), this is what Thomas's J represented. John Beale conceived Richard Eustice Beale (first and middle name perhaps in respect to his wife's maiden name Elizabeth Eustice. Richard and his wife gave birth to Thomas J Beale and Edward Beale (TWINS) in 1780. They both died in 1786 which would signify some sort of accident. Perhaps a drowning mishap or fire? Regardless Richard still wanted to celebrate his grandfather and father's names in his son, so he had a son with another women (unidentified) and Thomas J Beale was born again in 1792 and lived until 1851.

    Now...If this is the real Thomas J Beale then a question arises why were they not ever heard from again after the second deposit? Also this Thomas Beale would have been 26 at the time to lead the expedition which is the perfect age back then as someone of that stature would surely attract the women and back then, 26 was literally about 35 yrs old in wisdom, since most men died around 60.

    I will note two things here:

    1: All of this information I gleaned from Ancestry.com which is similar to Wikipedia. Any user can insert something about a Thomas J Beale. Since this was a one time insert in the website database, the authenticity does worry me, even though the renaming of a child who died reassures me.
    2: My second point, I am going to make a seperate post concerning this because it is leading me down a rabbit hole that deserves singularly tight focus by all members who are interested.
    Summation: Claim neutralized. Neither confirmed or defended against.
    ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------

    Claim 3: The Washington Hotel wasn't even in service during Beale's visits.
    Analysis: I believe this has already been visited that it was the Washington Inn or House at the time, and Beale in his letter admitted as such claiming he enjoyed the stay in his home (paraphrasing).
    Summation: Claim neutralized. There is not enough proof or evidence to state that a miswording 60 years later can prove fallacy.

    ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------
    Claim 4: The amount of gold their expedition amassed over roughly 3 years did not exist out west in that area.
    Analysis: After a brief look into Colorado gold mining industry, I found that the area in question that the men travelled from Sante Fe NM north 250-300 miles contains probably the richest mineral bearing locations in the United States. Approximately 280 miles north of Sante Fe is the Virginia Canyon area that has produced (along with nearby mines) around 231,000 pounds of gold since 1850. Imagine all if all that gold laid available 30 years prior?? How hard would it really be to amass 3,300 lbs in around 3 years with singularly focused group of miners totalling 30 men? What I am so curious about is the term Virginia Canyon!??
    Summation: Claim denied.
    ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------
    Claim 5: There is no way that a group of men could go back and forth east to west then vice versa with wagons of gold and no one know anything.
    Analysis: Actually there are historical reports from the Cheyenne, Crowe and Pawnee citing stories of men from the east carrying gold back there. I'll include link to the statements....
    https://roanoke.com/archive/is-the-b...6727ed7fd.html .....

    With regard to Beale's trip to Santa Fe, there is evidence to corroborate his discovery of gold. For example, Jacob Fowler, who explored the American Southwest in 1821-22, noted in his journal that the Pawnee and Crowe tribes "speak on the most friendly terms of the White men and say they are about 35 in number" -- this number is similar to the size of Beale's party.

    Also, there is a Cheyenne legend dating from around 1820, which tells of gold and silver being taken from the West and buried in eastern mountains.


    Summation: Claim denied.
    ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------
    Claim 6: There is no way that a group of 30 men could mine that much precious metal over 3 years and not open their mouths to the public or entrust Beale to conceal it all.
    Analysis: Actually back during those years, it was too dangerous for those men to speak of these minerals. Because Spanish rule was too dangerous for these men. Back then Americans were travelling in that area and trading around Sante Fe and the surrounding topography. However, if any men were coming up with gold and silver, and spoke about it... they would've been swiftly executed by the foreign rule. Spanish law was NOT STRICTLY enforced on everyone due to the vastness of land and lack of soldiers to cover it, but if word had gotten out about a group of 30 men mining "Spain's gold", they surely would've spared no expense to hunting them down and killing them. Therefore its not like today where you brag about winning a 10,000 dollar scratch off ticket. Back in those days, bragging about such a thing would mean your death in that area.
    As for trusting Beale, we have no idea how inspired men were in those days to a leader like him (if he existed). From the stories we can see that they did argue about using Sante Fe as a depository, but clearer heads prevailed (as it was in foreign controlled territory), and the home of Virginia was selected. Trust wasn't THAT much of an issue as all the 30 men went 500 miles, while 10 remained for the last part of the journey back to Virginia. And upon returning to the 20 west of Denver Co, to see that they all came back...I am 100% sure that the men felt fully assured that their shares were safe.

    Summation: Claim denied.
    ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------
    Claim 7: On a TV special they showed that one cryptologist found a string of letters in the middle of the cipher that mimicked the alphabet. The odds that it happened randomly are too great.
    Analysis: I'll be short on this one and just use common sense. It's a TV show. Most TV shows are faked for content ratings. Even if the string was found... the rest of the cipher was incoherent...meaning it was the wrong decryption. None of us really know if that person found a string in the center of the cipher, or if he/she was just mad that they couldn't break it and made it up. Now if there are multiple people who could recreate that decryption with the same string of alphabetical letters, we'd have cause for concern...but we don't.
    Summation: Claim denied.
    ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------
    Claim 8: Cipher 3 (said to contain the names of the party their relatives and place of residence) is too short to contain that much information.
    Analysis: I took Cipher (letter) 3 and found that each individual in the party would have approximately 21 characters (on average) assigned to each of them. Beale with his own words said,....
    Lynchburg, Va., January 5th, 1822.

    Dear Mr. Morriss. - You will find in one of the papers, written in cipher, the names of all my associates, who are each entitled to an equal part of our treasure, and opposite to the names of each one will be found the names and residences of the relatives and others, to whom they devise their respective portions.


    Now I took this exactly as he said when analyzing. Back in those days, anyone who wished to leave an inheritance (their share) would do so to a family member being wife, kids, siblings, or parents. As Beale stated in that piece OPPOSITE TO THE NAMES... meaning there would be a man's name (assuming the entire party were men) and then a relative's name, then last name and residence. For ease of understanding I am showing a slight example piece of how it would work(I'm inserting commas to separate for your ease of reading)...

    ALLEN,SUE,SHIPLEY,ROA,VA,LEE,TAMMY,STINE,LCHBRG,VA ,JACK,ELLEN,HAYES,GALV,TX,ED,PATRICIA,HILL,SL,MO,E VAN,ANNIE,JONES,RCHMND,VA

    Here are 5 (fictional) examples of the 30 member party. Given 21 characters each we should (if given to correct course of the cipher) have 105 characters or less from above. Lets count...
    If correct, I counted 102 characters which easily fit the parameters and give clear identification to the men and their wives (could have been others) with residences.
    Summation: Claim denied.

    ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------
    Claim 9: There are words that Beale used that were not in widespread usage at that time in America, which indicates it was written later than 1840.
    Analysis: I didn't live back then so I cannot claim what was popular and in widespread use at what time. I do know that they only have written examples of the use of those words. Spoken use could've existed as early as 1830 and initial use overheard from travels could've been heard even before that. Beale, according to his story was a learned man, so perhaps he had interactions with people who used these words and he thought to make them a part of his personal repertoire. Do any of you remember how YOLO started, "Fist Bumping", the Matrix saying "NOT LIKE THIS"? How quickly did we pick up on these new things and replicate them into our daily language just to show everyone how sophisticated and educated we all were? Almost immediately.
    Summation: Claim neutralized.
    ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------
    Claim 10: The handwriting seems to be of the same word usage in both Beale's and Ward's, therefore it must've all been written by Ward.
    Analysis: I have to dismiss this one on a note of personal experience. For 5 years back in 2015 I was searching for Forrest Fenn's treasure. I became so enamoured with his prose and writing style that I subconsciously emulated his writing style out of respect for the man without knowing I did it. So much so, that every post or comment had most searchers thinking that I WAS Fenn using some pseudo name "Iron Will." I was actually touched by the comparison, but I'm still typing so this proves I am not him. Human beings have a way of secretly and subconsciously wanting to be a person they admire so much that they begin to act like that person. I see no reason that James Ward could not succumb to this aspect of human nature.
    Summation: Claim denied.

    ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------
    Claim 11: Supercomputer programs found nothing intelligible in ciphers 1 and 3, so it must be a hoax.
    Analysis: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/...uried-treasure

    That attitude would reign among professional cryptanalysts until January 1970, when Dr. Carl Hammer, Director of Computer Sciences at Sperry-Univac, made a startling revelation at the Third Annual Simulation Symposium in Tampa, Florida. He had analyzed the Beale ciphers with a UNIVAC 1108 computer and compared the codes to the musings of a random number generator. The results showed signs of an intelligent pattern.

    "Beale Cyphers 1 and 3 are ‘for real,’” Hammer concluded. “They are not random doodles but do contain intelligence and messages of some sort. Further attempts at decoding are indeed warranted.”
    Summation: Claim denied.

    ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------
    Claim 12: Over 150 years, and no one has found it in such a small section of Bedford County, VA. So it must not exist.
    Analysis: During the hunt for Forrest Fenn's treasure, a man placed a mock chest 2 feet off of a trail in the leaves ON TOP OF THE GROUND. He then came back at a later time to find it. It took him a full 3 minutes at the exact spot, walking back and forth looking to find it. And he KNEW the spot it was supposed to be. A treasure hidden underground is virtually impossible to discover without Cipher 1 properly decoded, so this claim has no merit.
    Summation: Claim denied.
    ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------

    Okay Just to give a quick summary here...of the 12 claims I listed these are the verdicts from my research and logical thought....

    CLAIM 1: NEUTRALIZED
    CLAIM 2: NEUTRALIZED
    CLAIM 3: NEUTRALIZED
    CLAIM 4: DENIED
    CLAIM 5: DENIED
    CLAIM 6: DENIED
    CLAIM 7: DENIED
    CLAIM 8: DENIED
    CLAIM 9: NEUTRALIZED
    CLAIM 10: DENIED
    CLAIM 11: DENIED
    CLAIM 12: DENIED


    If I assigned a NEUTRALIZED aspect to a claim it means I could not DISMISS it, however it is not proven to be correct, so in effect, it must be extinguished.
    As for that one point which I could not state here, and will make another post about....LOOK FOR IT SOON...because every rabbit hole I looked into revealed stranger and stranger coincidences! I look forward to you all reading it.
    Last edited by Ironwill; Feb 26, 2021 at 10:13 PM.
    Rebel - KGC likes this.

  2. #2
    us
    manaloneblog.wordpress.com

    Jun 2010
    Wherever there be treasure!
    An older blue Excal with connector, remote, Skullie headphones, and various coils. Got rid of the rest of my machines.
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    You've misquoted and twisted some of the claims a bit. Also, technology has advanced quite a bit since 1970....lol Nobody ever said that a Thomas J. Beale never existed, only none that could be connected to the alleged adventure and none who's character was "universally know." (Actually there were more then two TJB's during the period.) Nobody ever said that claimed amount of gold never existed in the described region, only that due to it's complex matrix there was no know efficient refining process until many years later, those processes that were applied before then yielding documented losses of 50-70% until that new process was introduced. The alphabetical string you referenced from that TV show, well, you really need to understand why this is important as it applies to the alleged cipher process as there is "a lot" more to it then you might think. So maybe really know your subject matters, and "all of those histories" first before jumping to premature conclusions?
    ECS, alan m and Singlestack Wonder like this.
    "Treasure is wherever it can be found."

  3. #3

    Jul 2013
    49
    9 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    I see a lot of personal bias and opinion in your response, simply because I've observed your replies to posts in this subject over the past, so this response from you WAS expected. I appreciate your input and I will take it into some consideration.
    jhonnz41 and Rebel - KGC like this.

  4. #4
    us
    El Presidente

    Jul 2014
    Vermont
    Brain, Pointing Finger, occasionally the Pinky Finger
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    Claim 7: On a TV special they showed that one cryptologist found a string of letters in the middle of the cipher that mimicked the alphabet. The odds that it happened randomly are too great.
    Analysis: I'll be short on this one and just use common sense. It's a TV show. Most TV shows are faked for content ratings. Even if the string was found... the rest of the cipher was incoherent...meaning it was the wrong decryption. None of us really know if that person found a string in the center of the cipher, or if he/she was just mad that they couldn't break it and made it up. Now if there are multiple people who could recreate that decryption with the same string of alphabetical letters, we'd have cause for concern...but we don't.
    Summation: Claim denied.
    Denial refuted

    That was not some "tv special" and your rambling after the fact shows that you are just mad that YOU can't break it......

    to be honest...you don't have to break it to find the finder's vault or the men's shares......but you gotta know what you are doin

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Beale Vault 1.jpg 
Views:	10 
Size:	295.3 KB 
ID:	1905736

    See the pile on the left stacked on top of the stone slab?

    That strand is an embedded alphabet....that technique is a well known one.....and you sir, have overlooked the second and third ciphers that are found from within the body of text they made.....

    That guy was once the president of the American Cryptogram Association ....... lol

    And you are clearly "from Virginia".....
    But he who knows forms, is able to grasp the unity of nature beneath the surface of materials which are very unlike. Thus is he able to identify and bring about things that have never been done before, things of the kind which neither the vicissitudes of nature, nor hard experimenting, nor pure accident could ever have actualized, nor even human thought dreamed of. And thus from the discovery of the forms flows true speculation and unrestricted operation.

  5. #5
    ECS
    ECS is offline
    us
    Mar 2012
    Ocala,Florida
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    ...and still you have not quit your day job, Eldo.
    alan m and Singlestack Wonder like this.

  6. #6
    ECS
    ECS is offline
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    Mar 2012
    Ocala,Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironwill View Post
    I see a lot of personal bias and opinion in your response, simply because I've observed your replies to posts in this subject over the past, so this response from you WAS expected. I appreciate your input and I will take it into some consideration.
    Much of what you have "denied" have been proven to have originated ftom lore and tales, not from hard documented fact.

  7. #7
    us
    manaloneblog.wordpress.com

    Jun 2010
    Wherever there be treasure!
    An older blue Excal with connector, remote, Skullie headphones, and various coils. Got rid of the rest of my machines.
    14,107
    9027 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Ironwill View Post
    I see a lot of personal bias and opinion in your response, simply because I've observed your replies to posts in this subject over the past, so this response from you WAS expected. I appreciate your input and I will take it into some consideration.
    Not bias, as like you, I once held some of the same "opinions" you have expressed here. However, that was years ago and before "a lot" of research and knowledge gained since then. Per example, as some here will recall, I was once convinced that the TJB of Richmond was indeed the TJB described in the pamphlet, and for many good reasons. However, there exist just too many contrary evidences/facts that don't support the narration as told or the cipher process presented, and that list is very-very long beyond just the tiny portion that you have twisted a bit and cherry picked here. Just saying, this long list that I refer to represents many years, many subjects, many source materials, etc., etc.
    "Treasure is wherever it can be found."

  8. #8
    ph
    May 2020
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    Please keep posting Ironwill. This is actually interesting. This is a very good data.
    In my Voyage I discovered, at the end of many leagues that nothing new appeared, ashore to some. And great success that our Lord has given, and of all arrive.

  9. #9
    ph
    May 2020
    570
    242 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Below is a portion of Thomas. J. Beale’s message to Robert
    Morriss dated on January 4, 1822.

    “I thought at first to give you their names in this letter, but reflecting that someone may read the letter, and thus be enabled to impose upon you by personating some member of the party, have decided the present plan is best.”
    In my Voyage I discovered, at the end of many leagues that nothing new appeared, ashore to some. And great success that our Lord has given, and of all arrive.

  10. #10
    ph
    May 2020
    570
    242 times
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    this really needs a lot of research. I am really suspicious about the stones removed from the peaks of otter by the group of Young men. The stone that was sent to Washington Monument, and the stone In locust level..That all will lead to the name of Paschal Buford.
    In my Voyage I discovered, at the end of many leagues that nothing new appeared, ashore to some. And great success that our Lord has given, and of all arrive.

  11. #11
    us
    manaloneblog.wordpress.com

    Jun 2010
    Wherever there be treasure!
    An older blue Excal with connector, remote, Skullie headphones, and various coils. Got rid of the rest of my machines.
    14,107
    9027 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by jhonnz41 View Post
    Below is a portion of Thomas. J. Beale抯 message to Robert
    Morriss dated on January 4, 1822.

    揑 thought at first to give you their names in this letter, but reflecting that someone may read the letter, and thus be enabled to impose upon you by personating some member of the party, have decided the present plan is best.?/div>
    The Thomas J. Beale of Richmond, if you're going to continue down this road, you really need to research him. Given his location, Richmond, and his position in that city, it is extremely doubtful that he wasn't made aware of his/same name and general description being used in a fantastical tale treasure right down the road in Bedford. This TJB wasn't a white man and he did have some prominence and notoriety in that city, enough that when a family member from Texas came to visit him it even appeared in the local newspaper. So "highly unlikely that he wasn't at least made aware of his name appearing in that tale of treasure." Ironically, he left Richmond shortly after the visit to go live with that same family member in Texas. It has long been suspected by some that he likely penned the story about himself and that he had arranged to have the story published with the prior knowledge that he would be departing the region. The name "Beale" was universally "scattered" with some of that family and "last name" having prominence, though not all from the same linage. You might also research "Jackson Ward"..(This TJB's Richmond district" ...some speculate that this was the reason for the narration referencing the name, 揓ackson.?
    "Treasure is wherever it can be found."

  12. #12

    Dec 2012
    148
    317 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Step 1: Arrive in a small town and get to know the locals.

    Step 2: Become friends with the most successful person in town (Inn keeper).

    Step 3: Leave town, then return a year later.

    Step 4: Leave inn keeper a cryptic letter that references buried treasure.

    Step 5: Write letter to inn keeper saying you are in trouble and need money. Promise to send key to cipher after money has been sent.


    Beale was a con artist that was either caught or killed before he could complete his scam.
    Singlestack Wonder likes this.

 

 

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